December 11, 2001

The Light Series #9: Courageous People Taking a Stand

Hello everyone

After long hours at the computer trying to process all the new material that keeps pouring in and preparing ever more compilations, I have another installment ready for you below of the ever popular Light Series compilations.

Once again a vibrant *thank you* to all those sending their comments and recommending material.

Enjoy and network!

Jean Hudon
Earth Rainbow Network Coordinator

God of all men, God of all life, in the humanity we are dreaming of:

- Politicians are profoundly humanistic and strive to serve the common good;

- Economists manage state finances with discernment and in the interest of all;

- Scientists are spiritualistic and seek their inspiration in the Book of Nature;

- Artists are inspired and express the beauty and purity of the Divine Plan in their works;

- Physicians are motivated by love for their fellow-beings and treat both the soul and the body;

- Misery and poverty have vanished, for everyone has what he needs to live happily;

- Work is not regarded as a chore, but as a source of growth and well-being;

- Nature is considered to be the most beautiful temple of all, and animals are considered to be our brethren on the path of evolution;

- A World Government composed of the leaders of all nations, working in the interest of all humanity, has come into existence.

- Spirituality is an ideal and a way of life which spring forth from a Universal Religion, founded more upon the knowledge of divine laws than upon the belief in God;

- Human relations are founded upon love, friendship, and fraternity, so that the whole world lives in peace and harmony.

So Mote It Be!

Taken from the MANIFESTO Positio Fraternitatis Rosae Crucis published by the Rosicrucian Order AMORC and available from

"The situation of the contemporary world is not hopeless, but it is worrisome. What concerns us most is not so much the condition of humanity, but that of our planet. In fact, we think that time is of no significance in terms of humanity’s spiritual evolution, since man has all eternity to carry out this evolution, seeing that his soul is immortal. On the other hand, the earth is truly threatened, at least as a living environment for the human species. Time is running out for it, and we believe that its protection is a vital necessity in the 21st century. It is to this purpose that politics, economics, science, technology, and all other fields of human activity should devote their efforts. Is it really so difficult to understand that humanity can only find happiness by living in harmony with natural laws and, in a wider sense, with divine laws? Furthermore, is it so unreasonable to admit that humanity has the wherewithal to sublimate its own interests? Nevertheless, if humans continue to pursue materialism, the darkest prophecies will be fulfilled and no one will be spared. It matters little what political ideas, religious beliefs, and philosophical convictions people hold. The time has passed for divisiveness in all its forms; the time is now ripe for unity — unity of differences in the service of the common good."

- Also from the MANIFESTO mentioned above.

"Remember, to be truly Radical, You must make Hope possible, rather than Despair convincing."

- From Homeless News On-Line --

"Humanity is at a crossroads, we can decide to fight the system that exists or we can work towards a transformation. Many of us have had dreams that media can be changed, returned to ethical reporting, but what we have found is that it is an uphill struggle and that there are many obstacles in place which prevent change."

- Ron McEntee <>

"Christmas into New Year is a time for being a herald of good news for the poor and oppressed; good news of a coming glory that will win through despite all resistances. May this Christmas into New Year be a time of owning up to and making known your highest hope for a turn about from violence and debt oppression to real peace and prosperity."

- Boudewijn Wegerif <> in his latest WHAT MATTERS-33 newsletter (see #7 below)


1. A feedback & Wisdom from the Dalai Lama
2. This raging colossus: GREAT!!
3. Where are our Oracles?
4. The principle of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance
5. MEDITATIONS - Entering the 7th Golden Age
6. We are all in contact with the 'One-ness'
7. Miracles in the Storm, a Christmas gift book recommendation
8. Special invitation to the ERN subscribers in California


Two events that might be of interest if you live in the area:

January 18 - 22: Conference on Business and Consciousness in Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Details at

January 25-28: Living Light Lightworkers Conference in Australia
Details at


December the 12th is an Operation Planet Love ( annual global meditation since 1983. It's Our Lady of Guadalupe's day, the Patroness of the Americas. Please join us at noon wherever you are.

To get the details, please ask them from "Cecilia Rouvrais" <>


From: "Linda Stalder" <>
Subject: RE: The Rising Phoenix Series #2: Dreaming Up A New Future Together --- Webposted at
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001

Dear Jean,

Just a quick note to say how much I enjoy reading your newsletter. I always look forward to reading it and have benefited so much by being able to put '2 and 2' together. I also appreciate what you are now doing...focusing on the positive. The information today including communities focusing on healing ourselves and the earth is especially heartwarming for me. What a beautiful vision! So thank you, thank you, thank you for your time and efforts in compiling all this information and making it accessible to so many.

I haven't seen you mention the Disclosure Project but I'm assuming you are aware of it (

(NOTE FROM JEAN: It has been mentioned several times indeed. To find out where it is archived, you simply go at and use the onsite searchengine with the key words "Disclosure Project". You may try also "Greer".)

I would like also to offer the following from the Dalai Lama that was in my mailbox this morning:


At the end of the talk someone from the audience asked the Dalai Lama, "Why didn't you fight back against the Chinese?"

The Dalai Lama looked down, swung his feet just a bit, then looked back up at us and said with a gentle smile, "Well, war is obsolete, you know. "

Then, after a few moments, his face grave, he said, "Of course the mind can rationalize fighting back... but the heart, the heart would never understand. Then you would be divided in yourself, the heart and the mind, and the war would be inside you."

Once again, I offer my heartfelt gratitude.


Linda Stalder


From: "Mary Devlin" <>
Subject: This raging colossus: GREAT!!
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001

Dear Ms. Bunting,

I read the above-referenced article courtesy of Jean Hudon of the Earth Rainbow Network, and, frankly, I was impressed.

Don't think that all Americans are like those whom you quoted in the article. I am American, as are all my friends here, and we, like you, are deeply concerned about the Bush administration and their outrageous policy. Many of us are vigorously taking action - including myself, who up until this time have been so apolitical that it's funny. I hadn't voted since Jimmy Carter, but in the 2000 election I made the effort to get out and vote, just to do my part in keeping Bush out of the White House. Now I'm sure my Senators and my Congressman think I'm a pest, as they get so many letters from me asking that they fight for the environment and for our civil liberties.

The thing is, though you may not be aware of it, there is a growing sense of alarm about what's going on among Americans - not only the California New Age-environmentalist faction, of which I am a part, but even among the far right wingers. In fact, the militia movement in the US is actively opposing what's going on. I don't like violence, or even preparing for it, so I never thought I'd find myself on the same side as the militias, but here I am - at least as far as this issue goes.

Courageous Congressional representatives and civil libertarians are actively fighting the Bush administration's agenda. Some are even crying out for impeachment. This gives Americans who don't accept the word of the government or the media without further research on their own, the hope that this country ISN'T going to fulfill all the negative prophecies for the millennium that I'm sure you're as sick of as I am.

I'm old enough to remember the Kennedy assassination, Watergate, and Irangate, and I can only hope that what's happening here will follow the same pattern before too many people are dead. Those who were brave enough to speak up about all of them initiated action that led to intricate investigations of all these matters - and let the world know that the people weren't going to let the government lie to them and manipulate them into accepting actions and policies that were against their best interests. I'm hoping that, with the assistance of courageous journalists like yourself, this one will follow the same path - though it should bring about more sweeping changes.

Perhaps you would like to give some attention to those who are taking action and protesting the Bush Administration's policy. This might awaken people who so far don't know about all the unrest and give them the courage to participate. Thank you very much for your work.

Mary Devlin


Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001
From: Keren Taylor <>
Subject: Where are our Oracles?

Hi Jean:

I just wanted to respond to Ariel's post. I also feel exasperated at our reliance on the media to advise and guide us all as to what is happening, has happened, or should happen. We do have some living leaders/oracles such as the Dalai Lama, and they are largely ignored.

I don't want to sound un-patriotic, but the fanning of our nationalistic passions keeps us focused on our barely elected President, and the dance he does with our American media outlets. I'm renewing the cry to turn off your televisions, and find your way to sources of wisdom and truth, in whatever national borders they reside.

Keren Taylor
Los Angeles


From: "David Snape" <>
Subject: The principle of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001

Hi Jean,

In regards to the post by Jackie Alan Giuliano (in Miscellaneous Subjects #118), I have something to say. The greatest principle ever is that of Zhen-Shan-Ren or Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance. You can learn this principle in a book called "Zhuan Falun" by Li Hongzhi. This book is available as a free download from

I encourage anyone that felt that Jackie's post was right on to read the book, "Zhuan Falun" I think the world can really use an understanding of Truthfulness-Compassion-Forbearance, especially now.


David Snape


From: "Paul LeBreton" <>
Subject: MEDITATIONS - Entering the 7th Golden Age...
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001


Lord Michael and Kuthumi with the Elohim Council, offer also a sacred portal period for all of humanity to attune to that is of great planetary significance. The following article describes the period at this time as The Holy Grail of Humanity. The Elohim over this period bring forth the encodements for all to enter The 7th Golden Age - the new age of love.

Entering The 7th Golden Age

The New Age Through The Elohim, Lord Michael and Kuthumi

Each on the planet is preparing through physical and lightbody changes, transformation within the conscious awareness and through karmic clearing and the expansion of their love. The cells of all beings will be depolarised over a period through this transition creating a magnitude of love current within the body.

The shift into the new age is a shift from experiencing life linearly to experiencing life multidimensionally. In this, one's consciousness must release all that binds one to the past and all that projects into the future. The transition phase is one of great transformation. The Golden Age is the experience of being in the pure now moment. It is the experience of no thought, only pure higher awareness and heart connection to all. The following world wide meditations are to assist all into moving into this experience.

It is over the portal period of 12th December, 2001 to 13th January 2002 that The Elohim through the Shamballa Council, are to open an Elohim: Gateway within the Earth's dimensions. This is to raise the vibration of the planetary body and our physical body resonance in preparation for entry into the Golden Age. The Ascended Masters place a clarion call out to all to create circles to receive 3 activations. These 3 activations will occur on the 12th December 2001, 31st December 2001(New Year's Eve midnight) and 13th January, 2002

Lord Michael speaks

It is at this time that we call "the Holy Grail of Humanity" that the Family of Light and Love will reunite through the bodies of humanity as many higher dimensional beings anchor into their physical body counterparts on a mass level at this time. Many love/light/earth workers within humanity are completing their earth karma clearing and will integrate the higher aspects of their being on a mass level. They will continue to assist the karmic upliftment through offering service through their unique puzzle piece. We are asking many beings who have the knowing that this is their completion time, to gather together in group to receive transmissional alignment to their new resonance and receive activation of their puzzle piece in the world.

We are placing a clarion call to all light/ love/earth workers to receive over this portal period, 3 activations towards this and for each at this time to offer themselves in divine service as a vehicle for humanity's divine awakening and healing. "

The following meditations/activations are for each of these dates. Please network globally to assist the upliftment of humanity.

The Maitreya Christ World Service 12th December 2001

There is a clarion call to all light/love /earth workers in opening their hearts as one to the sound vibration of the universal heart. For all to gather with candles and call for the heart of the Maitreya Christ to embody them and to sing love to all beings through sacred songs. To breathe and ask to be a vehicle for the Maitreya Christ to surround all within the world who have fear in their life. To embrace all who are in separation from their own hearts. The Divine Father offers to support this Maitreya Christ Day Activation through holy communion, as one on this day with all in sacred circles. May this be a day of prayer, song and world service where all offer some time in world service.

The Maitreya Christ offers you love and peace and offers to all of you who give service, a demonstrative strength of the Christ nature as a blessing and to all prayers that are offered, a demonstrative strength of the Christ nature as a blessing. It is upon this day that The ELOHIM Gateway will open to Earth as a sacred portal for the planet's new encodements for Cosmic Ascension and the new age.

Blessing of The New Year 31st December 2001

We ask all to gather before midnight to chant the names of God/Goddess and OM until midnight and to then sit in 12 minutes of silence until 12:12am. All are called by Lord Michael to receive love from the Divine Mother through the Elohim Gateway at this time and fill the heart with this love until one feels the vibration of peace within. From this stillness all are asked to transmit this peace to all within humanity, into the areas of the world that do not feel peace at this time.

The ELOHIM, The Ascended Masters and Angelic Kingdom will assist all in receiving and transmitting this vibration in all ways. At 12:12 am within your area, The Elohim will direct the encodements of The 7th Golden Age and activate the puzzle piece of your being. It is this puzzle piece that holds your unique piece of the Divine Plan and entry into the new Age. After 12 minutes of silence and transmission of the vibration of peace, we ask all to receive the transmissions from The Elohim through a specific meditation involving the embodiment of the holy grail. Free downloadable transmissional music by Michael Hammer for 12 minutes past 12 for the meditation is available through the website and will be on line very shortly. Gaia Love Day 13th January, 2002

There is a clarion call placed out to all light, love and peace workers to remember GAIA on this day as her Earth current resonance moves into a higher frequency on this day and The Elohim Gateway completes its raising of the Gaia resonance. We ask all to be with the Earth and her heart on this day. In circle or in your own heart, give service to GAIA and the earth spirits for all they have offered unconditionally to humanity.

We ask all to focus on the earth and her leiline system as the new current pours forth through her body to receive a star acceleration through the portals of Alcyone, Syrius A and Andromeda. This holy trinity that shares resonance with the higher vibrational grid system of the Earth offers on this day a sealing of The Elohim activation of the Earth's matrix of wisdom and love. The unified field of the Elohim will hold the Earth until all move into a higher frequency upon the planet.

The Elohim offer their love and wisdom over this period through an etheric gateway that is more powerful than any force within the earth's field that is not in conscious alignment to Divine Plan. This gateway serves as an etheric bridge for many within the soul nature of humanity who are lost and cannot find their way to love. The Divine Mother's heart is to bring the love into all hearts over the New Year welcome into 2002 through this gateway and particularly to those children of Earth who are lost and are disconnected from the divine.

Divine Mother's Message for 2002

My message to the world is that your love heals all. All wounds of a child hear your sweet love and all that weep across the world know thy name for they have met your love. Go no pathway where you cannot be as love, for it is your love that will keep you warm. Know that within you is the greatest heart and it will hold you in all times.

I am here for all beings as mother. I offer the love to all who are lost and all who are unaware of their home as their heart, the sanctuary where one can receive love. I offer sanctuary to all. Call my name and I will return the call with a grand love that is yours that you may have not as yet found. Reclaiming this love is the Earth mission of 2002.

This year is to be a year of reclaiming through love, the lost children of Earth, your lost parts of self, reuniting with soul family and reconnecting to the group soul of humanity. I am a bridge for all you have lost remember your divine child nature and play. Walk upon me as thy bridge and call for all to return to you."


From: "Charles de Beer" <>
Subject: We are all in contact with the 'One-ness' re: The Rising Phoenix
Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001

Dear Jean,

Well done. Nica's deep sorrow should be experienced and endured by all men, and is akin to - and a reflexion of - what is portrayed by Christ's crucifixion: relieving the burden of universal sin! This "sin" comes from a total ignorance of what man is on earth for. Daniel Kolos' "quiet revolution", Don Ferrari's "there is no separation", Matthew Webb's "Expansion of Consciousness" are all in harmony with what I mentioned some while back : "the perennial philosophy". which teaches this "return to frugality" as a means to a re-union with the God-Within. A marvellous book to read and re-read is Sir George Trevelyan's 'Operation Redemption' (subtitled 'A Vision of Hope in an Age of Turmoil') Turnstone Press 1981 UK.

My own faith comes from the KNOWLEDGE that we are all in contact with the 'One-ness' through our dreams. We are prodded and guided by our Higher Self in our dreams, however strange or simplistic they may seem. They need to be interpreted on a spiritual cum mystical level, NOT a psychological one. I have been doing this for 50 years or more, and privately published two books containing each about 60 dreams sent to me from all over South Africa, with my 'reading' (interpretation) of them, plus bibliography. (Highly recommended by two American Dream Journals)

The first one (1990) now sold out. The second one (1996) can be obtained from me (airmail postage) for $10, ("Dreams, Mystic Stories") Address <>

I look forward to your further Rising Phoenix messages.




From: "Boudewijn Wegerif" <>
Subject: WHAT MATTERS-33: 7 Items including Miracles in the Storm, a Christmas gift book recommendation
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001


The items are:

1. Hampshire College Condemns War In All-Community Vote
2. Home Rule For British Columbia Web Site
3. Alternative Energy Update
4. Build An Electronic E-Bomb For Just $400
5. Financial Market Update ñ Up In The Air Without Landing Gear
6. Number 11 - "A Gateway Between The Seen And Unseen"
7. Christmas Book Gift Recommendation


7. CHRISTMAS BOOK GIFT RECOMMENDATION: Miracles in the Storm by Mark H. Macy - just out, from New American Library, a division of Penguin Putman Inc.

When a publisher's copy of Miracles in the Storm arrived in the post for review, I wasn't expecting much from it. The subject does not interest me a great deal in itself - namely, ITC, instrumental transcommunication, "to get information directly from the worlds of spirit in the form of voices, images and texts". Not that I doubt the evidence, which is considerable. Even though I also have evidence of my own, I couldn't quite see the relevance. Until I read the book, that is.

I became totally engrossed in the fascinating account Mark Macy gives of how the ITC team here on earth have struggled to find the right balance between the trust and teamwork required of them by the group they are working with on the other side, called 'Timestream', and their desire for hard scientific 'proof' with which to wow the world. I should add that the Timestream group includes departed souls who once worked as empirical scientists on earth; however, these former scientists now have a clearer understanding of science as 'knowing' in the sense of embracing a truth, rather than trying to capture it.

Acceptable 'proof' of inter-dimensional communication has been the spin-off of experimenters like Macy having their hearts and minds open to Timestream. They have had remarkable communications from Timestream, whereas the results for the experimenters working outside the ITC network have mostly been meagre, even suspect (from shallow, callow sources on the other side), because of the experimenters' setting up their instruments to capture voices and pictures from the spirit world in a bell jar, literally and figuratively speaking, without proper regard for the source of the communications.

As Mark Macy writes in the Preface: "I can safely say that since I got involved in ITC in 1991, our spirit colleagues have always communicated with us in a reasonable, wise and empathetic manner. We humans come to trust the opinions of people on Earth who exhibit those qualities consistently over a long period of time, and it is natural, then, for us to extend the same trust to our spirit friends."

ITC traces its history back to the 'spiricon' voice on tape experiments made by George Meek and Bill O'Neil in the United States in the 1970s. The contact centre then shifted to the home of Maggy Harsch-Fischbach and her husband Jules in Luxembourg. They had been inspired by the work of Meek and a German experimenter Hans-Otto Koenig to set up tape recorders in their home in 1985 and it was not long before they were recording communications from a group of departed souls from Earth, working under the guidance and protection of a delightfully wise and knowledgeable ethereal being.

The open-minded ITC experimenters have learnt that there are many, many levels of spiritual existence, from the rather dense astral planes that are a lot like the earth, to the light ethereal realms where angels and light being live a formless existence of pure, loving thought.

Maggie Harsch-Fischbach has often asked the brilliant being who guides the Timestream project about himself, or herself. Here is an excerpt from the information she received:

"Our existence is beyond your comprehension. It's easier for us to explain to you what we are not. Not human, nor animal, nor male, nor female, nor light being, nor, of course, God. There are seven of us, and although we are individual beings with individual natures, we are fused together. Many beings such as we live together in small groups, or clusters, as we exist in subtle realms where such boundaries as skin and ego, which separate physical beings in your world, do not exist. We are in ethereal realms of spacelessness and timelessness where beings who resonate with one another can join together in common existence, if they so choose. Many of the great beings who have walked your planet, such as Jesus Christ, Mohammed and Gautama Buddha, return home to live in ethereal clusters in our realm, which, from your perspective, is very close to God.

"Names are of no importance to us. As they are important to you, you may call me Technician, as my role in this project is that of a technician to facilitate contact between worlds. Our group you may call simply, The Seven. We, the Seven, are assigned as a Gatekeeper between Heaven and Earth, between time and space. For us it is only an assignment, while from your perspective we have accompanied your world for many thousands of years. We have provided humanity with guidance and protection, and we have moved particularly close to the Earth during seven crucial periods of climactic growth, your current civilisation being the seventh. We are here to assist you."

Do I accept this? "In my Father's House are many mansions. I go to prepare a place for you." "What is truth?" With these Biblical references in mind, I am drawn to ask, "What does it mean to be true to oneself?" And the answer for me is to be loyal to the relationships and path in life that one has chosen voluntarily, at the right time for choosing, around the age of 28 to 35. My chosen relationship is with the party surrounding Jesus - Peter particularly. It is a relationship that I have found to be open to all possibilities, including that of Jesus having come out of and returning to an ethereal diffusion that is as much home to Gautama the Buddha and Mohammed and the being who is known as Technician by the Timestream and ITC groups. They take etheric, astral and physical form when on assignment, with Jesus' assignment as the Christ Messiah having been particularly difficult, because of its centrality in history, to draw history to a close, by allowing himself to be imaged on a cross, as a brother and friend. An image that is branded on all our souls, reaching deep into every nook and cranny of our all too human, compromised hearts. To awaken demons and enlighten hope.

Quite some sentences there. Never mind. I let them stand in the spirit of Christmas sharing. And balance them out with this insight into the new impulse that has been seeded in the human heart through quantum science, for a new beginning. It is drawn from an exchange between the German physicist Ernst Senkowski and a member of the audience during a presentation of ITC organised by Mark Macy:

"Matter and energy are not basic components of reality, as we have been taught," said Ernst Senkowsky: "They only exist in our minds, or call it spirit or consciousness. The modern term would be 'information'. Matter, energy and everything else are special forms of 'information." A young woman stood up, "You mean reality is all in our head?" she asked, to get a laugh. "Obviously the world is not in our head," replied Ernst. "It is part of the nonlocal mind. On the other hand, if we learned to 'play' with our minds, we could be wizards, creating and changing the things around us."

That is what the new world order could be about. However, it requires cleared hearts and enlightened minds, which is what the now past age under the cross of terror and liberation has opened the way for, for peacemakers, not warmongers.

I want you to know that when reading Miracles in the Storm, at times it felt like I was holding light in my hands. Thank you Mark Macy, I was struck by the sincerity of your witness. And I read what you and your small ITC group were doing as tentatively branching out in an unfolding spiritual science, by which we will yet come to live in a resurrected world of love and truth and purity of heart.

The website for ITC -


** The What Matters Programme is an initiative by Boudewijn Wegerif, to spread information about what is happening in the world today, and how things could be, given a schooling at all levels to free the self and the world from debt/guilt oppression and money madness - a schooling for love.

You can read WHAT MATTERS E-letters 1-33 at the WHAT MATTERS web site

To subscribe to the WHAT MATTERS E-letters:

Boudewijn Wegerif,
Torsberget, 669 92,
Deje, Sweden.
Tel: +46.552.21112



28 November 2001

You are invited to a first executive briefing on a groundbreaking research study of American values, attitudes, and beliefs. Have we approached a critical turning point in our society?

Project leaders Alexander S. Kochkin and Dr. John Hudy will be making this premiere presentation of a two-year long landmark project, in which over 1,600 households across America were interviewed. The study was carefully conducted to meet unusually high technical standards for social science research and was guided by a professional research team. The results provide a very reliable and realistic picture of America today – and where we may be heading next.

The In Our Own Words (IOOW) 2000 Research project demonstrates a growing shift in American attitudes, beliefs and values toward a more integral way of life, which has profound implications for all facets of our society. The IOOW 2000 study examines key values, attitudes, and beliefs concerning: forgiveness and tolerance, ethics and leadership, compassion and service, expectations for the next decade, technology, media, healthcare and other vital contemporary concerns.

The IOOW 2000 study identifies many key issues of strategic importance to all of American society -- and to individuals in positions of leadership in all sectors.

“America is a society whose strength is based in part on the hopes and aspirations that arise from a longing for enlightenment and compassion. What choices will Americans make to tap our enormous potential?”

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13th – 11:30 to 1:00pm
Presentation: 11:50am to 12:30pm - Questions and discussion: 12:30 to 1:00pm
Light buffet-style luncheon is included
Additional period for questions and discussion: 1:00 to 3:00pm
RSVP would be appreciated by Monday, December 10th at Alex Kochkin - FFGA <>

A more detailed briefing on this Dec 13 meeting is available at

You may also take a look at the first Decade of the Heart website at

(This project has been underwritten primarily by Fund For Global Awakening, a 501(c)3 non-profit corporation, which is not limited to nor influenced by any political, economic, or religious interests.)